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When is full face not full face protection?


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14 replies to this topic

#1
magicaldr

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So looking for a wider a viewpoint here before taking this up (potentially) with my regular site owners. Basically as per my pic I wear a lower mesh face guard, a helmet, and a pair of x800 bolle tactical goggles. My site state that if you are not wearing full face protection you are not covered by the insurance, so own risk, no complaints there.

Now on my last game I got opened up on at about 3 meters in the head by another player and got my ear cut. The marshal said it wasnt worth putting in the accident book, and also that as my mask and goggles were 2 part they are not full face protection. Its only full face if they are joined, which makes no sense to me.

What is the wider view on this?

EDIT -> Realised I updated my pics so it doesnt show my gear, pic of normal headwear now attached :)

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#2
TPI

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In my opinion what the marshal said is utter big ones to me its full face but the insurance has final say i geuss.

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#3
Da_sheriff

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when it comes to insurance, you have to pay it, but they will do what ever they can to avoide paying out. so any thing you have should be at own risk.

On the note of the forum, full face would i guess be a once peice unit that covered the whole front face and ears. top/back of heard shouldnt/wouldnt count nor should neck. the fact that its a full face cover made up of 3 peices leaves gaps for BBs to still get though so couldnt be classed as full face.

but this is a subject that is always going to be dabatable.

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#4
Rock-climby-Dave

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'full face' protection would cover the 'full' area of your face.
I see a gap, thus, not full face, rather 'vast majority of face' protection, which I'm sure the insurance does not cover.

I see this from a marshal's POV.

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#5
Nickona

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at my site they say under 16s must wear full face and the stuff they give leaves your lower chin and most of your forehead exposed
then again if you have a two piece then i think its okay. Nearly got away with wearing a shmegh as full face :D

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#6
magicaldr

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Cheers peeps, I understand the gap comment, suppose from my perspective full face is about protecting eyes / teeth (and cheeks). Since I was shot side on, in the head, at close range my mask, had nothing to do with it in either case. Had I not had a helmet on it would have hurt a lot more than it did. I just get the feel that things were getting made up on the spot to avoid liability. I would be interested to see the definition from the insurance.

Not wanting to note the injury in the accident book, which to my knowledge is illegal. (Although I think onus is on me to report the incident) Since the accident record should include all incidents and potential incidents as well. After all as an example if you have a number of 'ear' injuries you should be able to adjust your recommendations to suggest ear protection during the safety brief. Or if you getting lots of injuries due to close contact you may want a minimum engagement distance (They dont have one or a surrender rule, you are in fact encouraged to shoot people no matter what or they will shoot you and told you will get no sympathy if you moan about them shooting after you call surrender)

Ok I know sounds like H&S gone mad, but just trying to explain why the accident book is supposed to exist to my knowledge (as a first aider of many years).

I nearly fell down a deep ditch due to darkness and no fence / marked path back to safe zone. Again not sure how the argument "well your mask was in two pieces so its your fault you broke your ankle / foot / arm or etc." would actually stand up in court. Luckily I wasn't hurt and am not considering suing anyone, but this raised alarm bells with me on the sites overall attitude.

I think it is something I will take up with the site manager (not there week nights) when I next see them, even if it is to point out that if they mean 'Full Face is a one piece mask or you not covered by our insurance" that they actually say that. Not just you must have full face, which to me would be covered by my bolle goggles and mesh face guard.

Will also start looking around for somewhere else to play I think, which is obviously anyone's final option :) End of day its airsoft, you get hurt occasionally but you expect someone to care and not play legalise on you.

#7
lil airsofter

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i think a full face mask must be joined and cover both the mouth and eyes. done.
sights are there for a reason, you dont need a bigger battery, you need better eyes.

#8
Nickona

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But it was an ear injury and most masks don't have protection againt the ear!

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#9
magicaldr

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So seems a 50/50 split (like my mask, hehe) on this. Sounds like an area where there potential for confusion. Would not matter if they didn't base all insurance on this. So leaves me with 3 concerns, that I will raise with them.

A clear definition, since if its only 1 piece masks then that needs stating. As per the thread full face means different things to diff peeps, covering whole face (my initial view), 1 piece mask covering eyes and mouth, 1 piece mask covering eyes, mouth and ears. If it is clearly stated then no issue for me, but if you basing all insurance on this you got to be clear.

They describe it in the safety briefing during a discussion on the risks of playing in shooting glasses, and that being your choice. As I wear goggles and face mask I did not expect to be excluded.

Second I am concerned about this blanket abdication of responsibility over your mask shape/type. I can understand facial injury being out, but not just a complete removal of duty of care for say ankles, arms, etc. Not saying you dont watch out for yourself, but if a structure collapsed and you got hurt saying oh your mask is two part, so sorry the wood was rotten but you cant do anything cause of your mask doesn't wash for me.

Finally I was (as my post tone prob showed) unhappy with how this minor incident was handled. I work on the rugby principle. If nothing is broken and blood not coming out cool, but if you bleeding on the field you get em off and sort the bleeding out before play carries on. Basic infection control for injured player and to protect other players from blood borne pathogens.

#10
Nickona

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I think thats a chat you'll have to have with the manager.
from what you've said they sound a bit like jobs worths

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#11
Cameron364

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Being 16 I have to wear 'Full-Face' Protection and my site let's me get away with Glasses or Goggles and a half face mesh mask, I rang them up and also spoke to marshals and they said it was fine, I might look into full face thoug because I would hate to get shot in the ear, I have been twice and I have been lucky so far, touch wood!

#12
Nickona

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I find the the rim on the US style tropic boonie hats take out all the power from hits and you can hear them but someone fired one shot hit the 1cm gap between my mask and hat! hurt like a b**ch

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#13
Da_sheriff

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i play by the "man" rule, if you dont want to get hurt cover every bit of skin in padding. if you dont mind a bit of pain, then go with what you like.

personaly i understand insuranec, but i also nderstand its more a formallity, so if a structure looks dodgy then ill stay out, that way it wont fall down on me, i dont bother with worring about ooo am i covered, if i get hurt then i get hurt, if im bleeding o well, plasters will do, if a break a bone, ill try and continue but some times ill limp off and call it a day. and id rther say, do bother writting it down in the injury book, as if insurance goes up cost of games could inturn go up.
plus UK HAS FREE healthcare so get hurt doesnt matter if your covered by insurance or not as either way if you have to go to hospitial your not going to be paying a dime

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#14
magicaldr

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Hi Sheriff, I hear you and no one wants to see insurance claims as you say, they make the game more expensive for everyone. I am not suggesting for 1 second claims for spurious minor injuries that you pick up playing this game. They are part of the day, as was the ear injury, it simply brought up the situation of the insurance and started my confusion on face gear.

With any activity there are risks and insurance is there for the worst case scenarios. When you have a family, if you break you back falling from an unsafe structure, you will no matter how much you love airsoft be looking to sort compensation. The NHS is great, but it will only make you well and it wont feed your family.

Yes you have a responsibility for your safety, as does the site. You may not have time in mid battle to check every step you take. You go on trust that someone has checked out the play areas for general safety, and insurance to give that last resort lifeline if something is missed. If that means I have to wear a 1 piece mask (or even take out my own personal insurance) then I will make that happen, as long as I know about it.

#15
Matt!

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you have to think of it from the sites point of view, while your face is covered. all an insurance company is going to say is, well in the contract is states you must be wearing a single full face mask. so yes as much as it is a pain, it isnt your fault or the sites. but the insurance companies any reason to not pay out and they wont simple as. sorry.

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