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The ergonomic factor


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23 replies to this topic

#1
Hubert

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Well we've had the topic about the aesthetic qualities of airsoft guns (what we like, what we hate), and that got me thinking.
Of the guns that I don't like, how many do I not like because they don't feel nice? How many are uncomfortable to use, weigh to much, are unbalanced, have controls in the 'wrong' place or are too long/short?

Let's be honest, whilst airsoft is mostly about asethetics ("that looks nice so I want it"), ergonomics are the important part - what makes something good to use. I've seen sales listed because "I don't like using X" as it's uncomfortable, and the numerous "what am bestest gun" topics ususally involve what the gun feels like.
A quote from an old soldier-come-airsofter, "Yeah the SA80 with RIS is in my mind, an abomination, it looks crap. I think its's absolutely ugly. But that isn't important in 'the real world'. A soldier never says, 'ooh sir, I can't use this, the black clashes with my DPM!'. What does matter is if it makes it easier to use, not to look at..."

So, do you/don't you like? Forget about whether it looks nice, or whether it has flawless internals and easy take down.
Simply put, are there any guns out there that you've decided you'll never ever touch again because they felt awful?

I'll start.
Not a fan of MP5s with folding and sliding stocks (solid are fine). To me, all the weight is uncomfortably at the back, and the stocks are always too long. I was using Dave's MP5 today - and I enjoyed using it apart from the fact that I found the sliding stock was far, far too short me.
I'm not a fan of the bog-standard Colt M4 sliding stocks either, for the same reason. Which is a real shame for me, as I think they're the best looking :lol:
Despite being used to carrying heavy weights, I hated the A&K M249 I used briefly. To me (spoilt by my perfectly balanced but heavy LSW), the weight was unbalanced, it was bulky in all the wrong places and it wasn't something I enjoyed carrying.
When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt: run in little circles, wave your arms and shout
- Parody of the Litany of Command, popular with Commissar cadets.

#2
Finius

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I tend to like my guns straight-up out-the-factory ergonomics. Custom pistol grips rarely add anything for me, aside from if they have a tab for correcting trigger finger placement.

I don't like the placement of the safety or fire selector on the L85; I'd prefer a system like the M4 where I can get it all with my thumb but the general bullpup feel of the L85 far outweighs that, since once I'm in-game it's off of safety and onto semi, where the gun stays most of the time.

#3
M_P

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I hate mp5's too, nowhere to rest your head for good cheek weld
Not a fan of tavors, they're too thick to be comfy for me
Most short guns too, I just can't stand having a short barrel, anything less than a bog standard m4a1 just feels uncomfortable to me

What do I like?
G3's feel great, as do most variants of it.
But my favourites by far are the PSG-1 and EBR, with the limited amount of time I've used them I really liked the feel, the PSG-1 was too light but with a rail set and metal receiver that wouldn't matter. The ebr is very heavy, but nothing (to me) feels better to hold.(gunwise of course :P :lol: )
I quite like the scar l, the h feels too bulky but the L is nice.

#4
Cyrax

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I havent held a lot of different weapons recently, but from memory:

SIG 552 are nice guns. Then feel compact and they tuck in tight, no creaking - feel like a CQB boss, if you get my meaning.

M21's and similar. Despite being one of my favourite looking guns, the one i picked up was not balanced at all, and didnt feel like a comfy option.

The ACR/ Masada. Something about this gun did not feel right to me. Cant really remember, I think it felt too bulky and cumbersome, like i couldn't aim down the sight particularly efficiently, or at least it would talk some getting used to.

M4's and M16's are amazingly, hence their popularity. I think they feel highly mobile, and thats why I like them.

Sadly i havent had any experience with pullpups.

But with the possibility of joining the army next year, I need to learn to love the SA80/ L85A2!

#5
Hubert

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I know what you mean Cyrax, I found the ACRs/Masada/AMK to be too bulky and blocky in the wrong areas.

I find AK47 and variant to be a little annoying too. I find that when you're lying prone, the magazines are a little bit too long/tall - and aiming becomes almost impossible, unless you twist the gun horizontally.

I love the G3, I think they're perfectly balanced and the weight isn't too bad but perhaps it's just my play style and the sites I go to, but I found it to be too long - always snagging on things.

I find that whilst the SA80s are heavy, you get used to them - especially since they're pretty well balanced. You can easily hold an L85/L86 as if it was a big pistol as the weight is pretty evenly distributed. The balancing point is somewhere around the trigger/pistol grip.
When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt: run in little circles, wave your arms and shout
- Parody of the Litany of Command, popular with Commissar cadets.

#6
Finius

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With you there about the SA80 Hubert. Especially in airsoft, the ICS is REALLY well balanced once you get a nice big battery in the front grip.

#7
M_P

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Yeah l85's are nice, although I do find the pistol grips too thin.... but then again I'm used to having a motor in it

#8
Finius

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Got a gun with poor ergonomics? Pistol grip too thin?

Tape is your friend.

I put electrical tape on everything uncomfortable. The trigger guard on the L85 rubs against one of my knuckles, it's got a ton of tape round it now. Mags, gear, everything, tape can fix it!

#9
Hubert

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I remember that I actually loved the M14. It was one of the few weapons I've ever picked up and been completely comfortable with whilst holding - long and sleek, it's just got for me that comfort factor.
Using it however... for me, the magazine is in just the wrong place. If it was a bullpup, it would be perfect, or, if they just moved the mag well forwards by a few inches.

Another weapon I really like due to it's ergonomics - the G36 family. Regardless of whether it's a standard, K or C, I think they're perfect. The controls are 100& ambidextrous, the weight isn't too bad - they're not super heavy, but nor are they so lightweight you forget about them.
When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt: run in little circles, wave your arms and shout
- Parody of the Litany of Command, popular with Commissar cadets.

#10
MZKaleem

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Mags, gear, everything, tape can fix it!


so why do you have a small penis still? jk dude,

but yeah i like the feel of M4's they just, fell annoyingly easy and simple :( its hard guys, i can get a good gun, has to be light but not too light, like the Rifle version of a P226, perfect, hopefully for me, its the MP5

AK's too long and slightly heavy (yeah im weak deal with it) but awesome
M4's already said
MP5, held a few and they. are. so. Cool! :P dunno how they perform though :lol:

my 416 is nice, but due to the metal ris i feel it weighs towards the front ):

It's ares, it'll be ok...

for 5 minutes :lol:

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#11
geoffreym

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i have to disagree with you on the ACR, i find it too perfect (i know it sounds weird, but my own opinion) and because of that i hate it, yes i know it's a toy, but weapons shouldn't be perfect, they are designed to do wrong. and favorite ergo wise, i haven't found anything even close:
M4/M16 - too much weight on the front end, and i find too much designed to be fired from the hip (spray and pray),
SA80 family/famas/aug/tar - personally i love bullpups for target practice, but in battle i can't seem to comfortably get my elbow down and it seems to be the thing that is constantly shot, and my eye can't naturally find the sight, i need a 1/2 second to figure it out.
MP5/UMP - see M14/M16 and this time purely designed for hip fire.
pistol wise:
M9 is too thick, and i've got big hands.
1911 i like as well as my ruger super hawk, but there is still something that feels wrong,

nicest rifle i've ever held is the SMLE/no4 which is weird i know, but it just feels right, same with the M41A pulse and MG42 when used like a rifle (i managed 3hrs before i had difficulty lifting a cup of water lol)

my own 2 pence worth, but if anybody has any idea on my problem, please tell me and reccomend a gun.

352a9bbb-46e1-428e-9bba-d051fc3d1c54_zps


#12
Cyrax

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The G36 family of weapons are excellent. I find them well balanced and easy to hug (keep in close to the body, swing around without hitting trees, etc). Everything is in easy reach.

I think looking at guns that are in mass usage is a good sign of the ergonomics, but not the best e.g. the AK family is popular due to reliability and accessibility and to an extent, stopping power. But im not sure that really effects the sale of the weapon?

Although I imagine it to be front heavy because of the barrel, i have always wanted a B.A.R. Ever since Medal of Honour, Allied Assault.

I know what you mean with bolt action rifles though, maybe its the wood feel or the fact they are basic, but they are nice to hold. Personally, and its a bit odd, but whenever i hold a various enfields, mosin nagants or kar 98's, I can almost imagine what it was like for the soldiers back in the day, through documentaries, films and games, the guns have a history in their own right.

But i have been thinking about this, and my favorite of all time is the Lever-action series of guns. Impractical, but I find em super fun. Used one in Australia, cant remember exactly what it was, but it fired slugs and boy it was powerful.

#13
skillfulmmd

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@hubert and @Cyrax really? I found the sighting process on both the ACr's to be very natural even the first time I used it felt like I used it hundreds of times.

And I think the M4 CQB is horrible to handle saying that the worse thing I ever held was an mp5 and that was the one marksman had last week.
I'm now in love with Finnius for helping me find my stock

#14
M_P

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It was truly disgusting, ill still be using it tomorrow too, I hate it soo much

A question for Masada/acr owners, does anyone use the cheek raiser?

#15
skillfulmmd

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On my red dot I dont need to but I like to use it when im using my iron sights.
I'm now in love with Finnius for helping me find my stock

#16
Cyrax

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@hubert and @Cyrax really? I found the sighting process on both the ACr's to be very natural even the first time I used it felt like I used it hundreds of times.



Well i guess thats why there isnt just one airsoft gun lol. Felt like a big old plastic toy to me.

#17
Hubert

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I can't comment on sighting the weapon, most weapons don't sight 'nicely' to me because I'm so used to the SA80 set-up.
I just didn't like the feel of any of the ACR (or the other one AMK? AKM? whatever) type weapons, to me they bulge out in the wrong places, or have flat edges in silly places. Genuinely didn't enjoy holding them.

Another odd one for me - I like the way the M60 feels (and looks!), but the weight really puts me off. To me, it isn't balanced properly. And I found the bipod a bit of a faff to deploy.

I enjoy full stock M16s. Hate the foregrips on them, I think the old handguards are just fine. Especially the 'Nam classic, A2 with M203. Feels... perfect.
When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt: run in little circles, wave your arms and shout
- Parody of the Litany of Command, popular with Commissar cadets.

#18
Airsofter123

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I've always thought the selector and mag release on the L85 are a bit stupid, and would really prefer it if it had M4 style controls. For real steel I'd hesitate to use it, as reloads are just too slow (at least twice as long as with my M15A4), but for airsoft it's good as you don't have to reload all that much.

I've never really liked the MP5 (or any SMG for that matter), as they feel far too light IMO (ok so they weigh the same as real steel, but I still find it feels quite unnatural).

As for pistols, I've never really liked anything particularly small - for example some of the small hi-capas don't have a long enough grip for all my fingers to be on it. I've found M9s and Pythons to be best suited to my grip.

Best handling gun I've ever tried was a RX4. Unfortunately it was JLS so shot like sh*t. If a real company made this I would definitely buy one, and strongly recommend if you're good with internals :D

#19
Rock-climby-Dave

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I'll go through 'the armoury' gun by gun and write a quick viewpoint, plus what i can remember from using at PB/hughs/joes/other peoples:

heeeere we go!

M4A1
Sighting it quickly is easy, eye falls right onto the rear sight in line naturally for me.
Stock fully extended is a touch too short by about an inch
the pistol grip has that annoying finger seperator, my hands don't like it.
round foreguard means holding it in any position is comfy, even if holding it 'new age style' makes your hands spread out just a little too far, its a little too fat.


DE M56DL - tactical stock and long barrel

stock fully out It's a great length, pistol grip is spot on, nothing in the way.
hand fits nicely on the front of the pump, but using it in a skirmish, one of the corners feels a touch sharp after several pumps and rubbing the finger quite badly.
Iron sights are nice and in the right place.

MP5A5
poor cheek weld, iron sights are funky, but once aligned my head stays there fairly easily.
on 'auto' the selector rubs the top of your trigger finger
stock is too short
It's VERY front heavy
easy to use mag release.
backup realease is almost unuseable.
very poor ergonomics, but somehow, because they are ALL bad, the gun functions for it's purpose really well (CQB fast movements)


LR300 (funky looking M4-a-like)

correct length stock
good irons
grip is slightly smaller, so more comfy in 'new age' stance
weird pokey thing on the back of the pistol grip, but the front one is no longer an issue with it
stock folds really well and really quickly


SCAR-L

stock is adjustable less than the M4, but through the correct arm length (ie, mid to long length rather than stockless to mid length)
stock folds away completely
selectors and releases are ambi and in the correct feeling place.
I don't like foregrips on it or holding it by the magwell, It's one of the few guns that an AFG feels right on.
Irons are too high from the body, so alignment isn't instant.


TM VSR Gspec
I'm finding it hard to find a position that I am uncomfortable in holding it.
good cheek weld
wierd place for the mag release, but fast reloads aren't really an issue with it.


A&K Dragunov
Bolt is too hard to pull.
Bolt handle is painful after more than three or four pulls in a minute.
mag release gets knocked too easily
pistol grip is too fat
Iron sights are too far forwards
stock is the right length.
trigger pull is faaaarr too long


G36C (and series)

Awesome cheek weld
good weight
well balanced
good iron sights
good selector and release placements


Barrett M82
Good cheek weld
fire selector is same as an M4
mag release is tricky lying down as the mag has to tilt almost 90Degrees to go in/out.
Bipod is tricky to operate alone.
It is too bulky


M16
Same as the M4, but is longer and has the correct length of stock.

L85
Mag is in the wrong place.
Release is in the wrong place
Trigger is slightly too far away
selector is in the wrong place
Safety is in the correct place, but should be nearer the selector.
iron sights don't work quickly.
Weird to operate prone.


AUG
mag, release and safety are in the wrong place.
upper reciever release is where you would excpect the mag release, which is amusing for you. less amusing for the owner.
trigger doesn't make sense.
stock is too wide and too tall.
dont like it at all.


Magpul Masada
It's very solid.
Cheek weld is great
front grip is the right size
pistol grip is comfy and the texturing isnt harsh.
no stupid finger seperator on the pistol grip.
Mag release and selectors are great.
stock is fixed and too short.
foregrip is the wrong shape.
It's weird, It's a really ergonomic weapon, It jsut all doesnt work together - opposite of the MP5.


L96
Really nice, similar to the VSR with the same issues.


EDIT:
PISTOLSSSSSSSS

MK23/USP
really comfy, even though they do feel large
reasonable iron sights.
USP compact is too short on the grip.
everything is in reach and works for me


M1911
niiiiiiiiiiiiice.
thin grips fit and feel great
decent Irons
everyting is where you would excpect


M9
Too fat
slide is a little too shallow for my liking


Glocks
They fit right, really comfy
the compact glocks are a little too small
Controls, whilst not necessarily where you would always expect, work well
mag release is a touch too recessed.


That's most of the main ones.


I'm sure I'll have forgotton something and chances are I have played with most things, so anymore I remember/are asked about I'll add later.

Send the doctors home, I'll be doing the operating around here.

 

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#20
M_P

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Too much free time ^^
:P :lol:




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