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Hit or no hit?


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21 replies to this topic

#1
Tristan Orr

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This was posted on my local site forums. Altho is completely true it still doesn't stop people from yelling "Take your ****** HIT!" I did do many times today but, when you watch a gun flinch right in front of you can call nothing you tend to get pissed off, and start yelling. After all you wasted ammo on this loser!

Anyways so of you might of read this before on a different forum but I think it's something everyone needs to know and put into practice, even myself!

Scenario:
You are tucked away behind a tree in a woodland game
The chatter of AEGs is carrying on the wind as your team engauges the enemy on a broad front
You scan the next row of trees for that tell-tale elbow or barrel that indicates the other team lying in wait.
Your RIF is loaded, ready to shoot and the HOP is dead flat out to 50 meters
About 30 meters is the next treeline...Suddenly, in that treeline: movement!
You spot the head and arm of one of the other team poke from behind a tree.
No consicous thought is involved:

What happens now
~Human reaction time from sense to movement starting is about 0.2-0.5s (it varies by person, fatigue levels, experience of the stimulus in question and by stimulus type)
~The movement to raise/aim your weapon takes an appreciable 0.1-0.3s, depending on practice and 'muscle memory'
~So let's be generous and say that from seeing a opponent to aiming your RIF and pulling the trigger takes 0.4s- that's with a well practiced and instinctive reaction from an experienced player.
~30m equates to about 100 feet.
~Your AEG fires at 330fps- the notional 1J 'Yardstick' for UK RIFs
~100feet/330fps= 0.3 seconds (0.3s)
:~Thus It takes 0.3s for a BB to travel from your muzzle to your target 30m away.
~ 0.3s Travel Time + 0.4s Reaction Time= 0.7s Total
Therefore, at 30 metres, the total time from observation to first hit is 0.7s.

At the same time:
~The sound of your AEG travels at over 1100fps. (Note: this varies by about 50fps due to the density of air varying with temperature/humidity but it's never LESS than 1100fps)
~At 30m, the sound takes less than 0.09s to reach your target- 0.21s AHEAD of your BBs.
~Ducking when you hear AEG fire is probably the very first instinct you learn in Airsoft- it's an automatic reaction and thus faster
~Let's say that the 'duck' reaction of your opponent is thus 0.2s
So Time from you pulling the trigger to your target begining to duck is 0.29s
You opponent is therefore already beginning to move as your first BB reaches where they were when you took aim- if it was just an arm you were aiming at then the chances are, at 30m, you've hit the tree they are hiding behind.

So: when you shoot at someone and they duck DON'T automatically bellow "TEK YER HITS YER ***********"
Fundamentally: it's rude and not in keeping with the sportsmanship of the game.
For another it's entirely possible that they heard you AEG and began ducking before the BBs reached them- mathematically and actually possible.

Some 'Caveats'
0: THE BIG ONE: This assumes that your opponent has only heard your shot and was STATIC before you shot
~If they see you at the same time as YOU see them then they have 0.3s in hand - the 0.3s it takes your BBs to travel to them- to dive to cover - while a third of a second might not seem much, it can be the difference between yelling "HIT!" or suddenly getting rounds back from your target!
Likewise, if your target was already moving obliquely to the line of fire (and you didn't lead them enough) then it's likely your BBs are landing where they were, rather than where they are.

1. These figures are idealised-
MOST FUNDAMENTALLY: You may not actually be hitting your target with that first BB.....
EVERY subsequent BB will take 0.3s to reach it's target, (in our example) with the additional delay between shots based on your RPM- with a notional 1000rpm, each BB is 0.06s apart
Thus your next BB is 0.36s from pulling the trigger, the next is 0.42s etc etc.
Initially, You might be slower at getting on target/pulling the trigger- new kit, being out of practice, being cold,tired or overheated all affect this.Your opponent might have a slower reaction time.
What I'm trying to illustrate is that it's entirely possible at even 30m to be ducking, just by HEARING the sound of the gun BEFORE the BBs get to you WITHOUT being a cheating so 'n' so.

2. The automatic reaction to this might be "I'll up me FPS then- the BB's'll get there quicker, innit."....
Sorry- The difference in travel time between a 330fps gun and a 350fps gun is 0.02s- So 0.28s rather than 0.3s...SO small that it won't make all that much difference to the outcome.
EVEN with a sniper rifle doing 500FPS, the travel time at 30m is STILL 0.20s.
AND the sound of your RIF ALWAYS gets there in 0.09s, REGARDLESS of the fps of the BB.
Only very good silencing or getting VERY close are solutions to this!

3. This is at 30m- A distance where most woodland skirmishers will happily enguage an opponent with high confidence of a kill...
Up that to the 50m (160ish feet) common these days then time taken from seeing your opponent to pulling the trigger is now in the region of leisurely 1 full second: plenty of time for your opponent to dive behind another tree!

Conclusions
At 30metres:
1. FPS is largely irrelevant.
2. Stealth, sound supression and accuracy at range are more important than sheer muzzle FPS
3. Not being seen adds an extra 0.3s to your chances of a kill.
4. You will ALWAYS hear the RIF before the BBs get to you- unless it's perfectly silent.
5. The best way to increase your kill ratio is to improve your reaction time with PRACTICE and STEALTH.
6. When being shot at from 30m, the best thing to do is MOVE rather than begin shooting back.

At 50metres
1. There will be approximately 1 second between seeing and hitting your target.
2. 1 Second is plenty of time for your opponent to duck, run, dive or begin shooting back (or open a newspaper and start doing sudoku)

#2
M_P

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Well written, good stuff :)

#3
Tristan Orr

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Well thank you very much, I can't take credit for it as I just copied it lol :)

#4
M_P

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Haha ok lol, interesting to know all.of the relevant times in a fire fight though

#5
joshcowin

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#6
Devastator

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I've read it before, interesting read, although some of the maths is a little dubious. Never the less, still impacts as desired by making you think that you might not always be hitting when you think you are.

#7
two_zero

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Yours or not, thanks for sharing! Excellent reading!

I had a similar issue with my ICS AK hicap, threw it against a tree and bob's your uncle.

 

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#8
Nickona

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thats really good thanks,

sometimes when people engage you from far enough you can see, the duck before it reaches you

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#9
Tristan Orr

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Well like i said, I myself rage at people, but its normally when I watch them flinch from getting hit and they say nothing!

#10
Nickona

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I find that its very unlikely that you'll hit someone in the first five shots

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#11
Liam Porter

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Unless you have a sniper rifle.. then it's the first or second shot, depending how well you know your rifle and weather conditions.

#12
Airsofter123

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To be honest it is pretty hard to tell when you've hit someone or not - I did a test with my friend of me shooting at him with a sniper rifle, then walking a bit away, doing it again etc. Even with the zoom I swear I hit him a few times when I didn't, and thought I'd missed a few times when I'd hit. I guess the human eye just isn't fast enough to keep track of bb's the whole time.

#13
Liam Porter

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Yeah, only time I get annoyed is when I see a person flinch, hide and the return fire.

#14
Nickona

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yea, their reaction is the biggest tel

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#15
Mitchell Gee

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I find if im tense and i hear a gunshot i flinch... even if it doesnt hit... no ones had any problems yet but its trouble waiting to happen :(
Formally 'BatHat'

I skirmish around the Reading to Watford area, Mainly Red 1 Skirmish and The Mall, PM me if you skirmish there :)

#16
Nickona

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yea but there is a difference between a flinch from a sound and a hit

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#17
Mitchell Gee

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you have a very valid point there
Formally 'BatHat'

I skirmish around the Reading to Watford area, Mainly Red 1 Skirmish and The Mall, PM me if you skirmish there :)

#18
Nickona

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thanks, I think half of it is reading the sitchuation

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#19
G-Force

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I find that its very unlikely that you'll hit someone in the first five shots

That really depends on a lot of factors. In some cases that statemant is right in others it's just being a bad shot :P
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http://www.youtube.c...ft?feature=mhee

#20
Nickona

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yea well thats a given really, just talking about the range etc. mention above, I tend to shoot in 3-5 burst anyway

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