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A theoretical question...


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34 replies to this topic

#1
Lost Paradise

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Ok so itís just a random thought but what would be the legal view if you found a burglar in your house and you used a RIF to hold him there until the police arrived. Would you be in breach of the law? Surely since it was in your house then it would be classed as self defence? Just an idea Iím writing a short story for my uni course that follows that basic idea. Thanks

#2
JerseyRider

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Thats a kinda 50/50 question

On one hand its in your home and your useing it for a genuine reason (self defence)

But on the other hand your abuseing it and are threatening a member of the public with it (and when the police do come you wil have alot off explaneing to do!)

Its a tough one TBH if you REALLY wanted to find it out i recon you could drop a E-mail to your local coppa :)

Thanks

Jack

#3
Rock-climby-Dave

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Self defence, easily.

it would EASILY fall into the 'reasonable force' category as all you are really doing is pointing a toy gun at them.
yes, explaining to police may take a while, but they are sure to understand.

maybe, whilst phoning the police, someone could explain that the gun isnt real? or if that is a problem as you are the one phoning, tell the police there ARE firearms on the premesis, and that you are holding the burglar in custody with one.


but this is quite interesting and I would love to know the answer from police.

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#4
JerseyRider

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I would still leave it down to the police on this one mate

#5
Devastator

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I don't see it as a danger to the public etc, and it's more fighting crime that igniting it. Personally I would open up at their face and hope it sends them off, then call the police. Sounds quite immature etc, but I've always had the belief that you can't just sit back and let these things happen.

#6
JerseyRider

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I wasnt thinking about beeing a danger to the public (hey if i had my own way i how kill the *******) i was thinking of them doing you for like missuse of the RiF

#7
Rock-climby-Dave

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ah yes, but then you are put in front of the jury who see:
someone enters your house
you point a TOY gun (as legally, that is what it is) at them
they surrender.

the jury is going to be with you, even if it is misuse of a RiF

Send the doctors home, I'll be doing the operating around here.

 

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#8
Dispas

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Yeah, its threatening with a weapon, potentially a deadly one, if you actually open fire and shoot him he can and possibly will sue you for damages.

Whether its a criminal offense is a hard one, the fact is its down to the police and sometimes down to the public prosecuters. I've heard many a case of minor or serious offenses where the first officer on the scene says he completely understands and agree's with what the person has done. Incidents I could cite are such cases as defending yourself from a mugger, violent incident involving teenagers attacking you in a pub, minor driving offenses like breaking a yellow light or things like prositution (that last one is less likely on this board) where two weeks can go by after the first respondant officer notes it in his book and leaves.

You think its all fine until two new officers turn up on your doorstep and announce your being charged.
The problem is, holding burglars at gunpoint probably IS a crime and like purchasing RIFs as a skirmisher its more a case of having a 'mitigating defense' rather than it not being a crime.
If the first policeman says it fine, doesn't mean its the end of it, any officer low on his arrests this month can turn up and decide to book you, as can the prosecution office. They can overrule his paperwork marked "No further action taken" and mail you a court summons.
My cousins a constable, told me a real scare story that theres an officer in his previous nick near southwark who he had a real dislike for who considered himself robocop. He used to troll around the locker-rooms asking people if there were any minor events they'd let slide he could do a follow up on, copy the names/addresses from their pocketbooks and go around their houses to charge them.

If there's a burglar in your house, your number one aim is to get him out of the house as fast as possible, even if it means giving him some petty cash to get out if it avoids violence. Get him out and keep yourself safe, don't try and hold him or bluff him with a weapon or an RIF, just get him out of your house, anything else is exceeding your lawful authority and just places you at risk of prosecution or even places yourself at risk if he has a knife.
Metal Knife trumps bb-gun. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight... unless its a toy-gun fight.

You do NOT want to end up in front of a jury for any reason, even if you get found not guilty it'll cost you thousands of pounds, weeks and months of worry and heartache where you can't work - and I garantee all your airsoft weapons will be confiscated and you'll never be permitted to own one again.

#9
Nutster

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just make sure that they (intruder) are upstairs, therefore they are technically blocking your escape and you have more of a reason to do something

 

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#10
JerseyRider

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Oh i can see it now

" all the money is upstairs.... HA got you like little bugger now when the cops come just tell them u where blocking my escape!"

#11
Rock-climby-Dave

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The law for protecting yourself has changed (within the last day or two)
It used to be 'You can use reasonable force to protect yourself, your belonging or prevent a crime'
which left a VERY fine line between right and wrong (which this topic is about)

under the new law of:
'You CAN NOT use GROSSLEY EXCESSIVE force' it means if someone is coming at you with a kinfe and you feel threatened, basically, you can do whatever is necessary to stop them, with no reporcussions. to the extent that, my understanding is if you have to, kill them.

obviously, if someone is stealing a loaf of bread, you can't go texas chainsaw massacre on their Arse......
but it still begs the question 'what IS grossley excessive?'

Send the doctors home, I'll be doing the operating around here.

 

Resident Patrol Base Techy, any questions about PB, message me and I'll do my best to answer.


#12
Devastator

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I think they probably mean in relation to the situation. Like you said with the bread and chainsaw.

If someone is coming at you with a knife then pulling out a minigun is excessive, however arming yourself with a knife (same as attacker) is not. I see no reason why you couldn't use a gun as a threat, but once you start firing, especially if they haven't lunged at you with the knife or whatever then I'd say that is excessive.

You could say well why not fire shots around them etc to scare them off, really I don't know, and it'd be much better to discuss this with someone better to answer the question.

#13
Rock-climby-Dave

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see, the law was changed to allow for peoples judgement to be allowed to be clouded, if in the situation of burglar has knife and in the heat of the moment, you pull the trigger on the gun, its the burglars fault for trying to burglaries you, not your fault for defending yourself.

and remember, it may be excessive to use a minigun, but if that is all you have, and your life is in danger, I would not call it grossly excessive.

Send the doctors home, I'll be doing the operating around here.

 

Resident Patrol Base Techy, any questions about PB, message me and I'll do my best to answer.


#14
JerseyRider

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I think what they mean by "excessive" is if he is down and not a threat anymore you dont keep kicking the shizz out of him

#15
Scorpio

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acceptable would be kneecap the little turd if possible but try not to mortally wound them if they will stop without deadly force. obviously if they have a gun then get it over with quick! excessive is if they are snooping around in your garden and you kill them just in-case. or if they aren't causing you danger or serious financial loss (running off with your safe for example), and you shoot them.
you have a much better case if you kill someone with something close to hand rather than going to get your gun to do them in, so practice throwing kitchen knives and say you got lucky when you dropped them 50m down your garden path! :D

#16
Ettienne

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You are joking?

Firstly. Most burgulars do this sort of thing day in day out every day.

They have seen it all before...

Secondly. They are a lot more streetwise thay you may ever be.

Thirdly. They usually have accomplacies.


Forth. OK. so you are pointing a 'Gun' at them, which as they operate in a different world to you they will know that you cannot legally possess. (Pistol. SMG. etc..).

At best they will get a good laugh as they break it in two and ram it down yer gob along with most of yer teeth...

Maybe they have come tooled up and will blow yer guts all over yer wall.

At worst it will be the last stupid thing you do.

Grow up.

#17
JerseyRider

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Who says you cannot prossess guns??

Even if you couldnt they could off bought a weapon illegaly

And i dought that majourty of burgalys are took place by "professinals" who maybe "tooled up"

Prob 80% are crack addics or addicted to something and are just looking at easy money, they wont know the difference between a bloddy Banana and a Glock in that state lol

And i am sorry but i am finding some of your comments a bit offensive this is a frendily website so voice your opinoin in a nice way or dont at all

Thanks again

Jack

#18
Ettienne

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Who says you cannot prossess guns??

Even if you couldnt they could off bought a weapon illegaly

And i dought that majourty of burgalys are took place by "professinals" who maybe "tooled up"

Prob 80% are crack addics or addicted to something and are just looking at easy money, they wont know the difference between a bloddy Banana and a Glock in that state lol

And i am sorry but i am finding some of your comments a bit offensive this is a frendily website so voice your opinoin in a nice way or dont at all

Thanks again

Jack


What on earth would you know about being tooled up and Crack addicts in the fantasy land of Jersey?

Strewth if they don't know the difference between a Glock and a Bannana then you better believe they think it is not a Banana.... :rolleyes:

Oh yeah there are lots of illegally held Glocks ready to hand sure there are. :rolleyes:

Are you sure that you want to be in an Airsoft Forum?


Get with the scene will you its is a Forum, what would that be with over the top censorship and no discussion....

Ever thought that you might be mistaken for the offensive one with a very naive outlook.


Confront a Burglar.... Come on....Get real...

#19
JerseyRider

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I am sorry but you know nothing about Jersey let alone me

I lived in england for about 13 years prior to moving to Jersey and i admit over here we dont have the same level of crime but we dont have our heads up our arse ethier, we do communicate with the outside world....

And how do you know how meny illeagly held guns there are?? its not a thing that poeple just blab around you know its like saying "oh yer i have 2 stolen cars a small weed plant and a box illegal weapons isnt that great!! :D" and its not like they would own up to it if asked...

I am sorry but have you read the content of the posts on this forum.. poeple manage to put across their opinoin with out the snobby comments

I dont like arguing TBH but i am a person to voice my opinoin and i am pritty sure i havnt said anything about where you live or your level of matureity

Thanks a bunch :lol:

Jack

#20
Ettienne

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I am sorry but you know nothing about Jersey let alone me

I lived in england for about 13 years prior to moving to Jersey and i admit over here we dont have the same level of crime but we dont have our heads up our arse ethier, we do communicate with the outside world....

And how do you know how meny illeagly held guns there are?? its not a thing that poeple just blab around you know its like saying "oh yer i have 2 stolen cars a small weed plant and a box illegal weapons isnt that great!! :D" and its not like they would own up to it if asked...

I am sorry but have you read the content of the posts on this forum.. poeple manage to put across their opinoin with out the snobby comments

I dont like arguing TBH but i am a person to voice my opinoin and i am pritty sure i havnt said anything about where you live or your level of matureity

Thanks a bunch :lol:

Jack



I do actually know a bit about Jersey.....

And I know you are a self admitted Chairsoft person from your file...

And you are 16 years old...

No doubt is a few years time you will have a different perspective....

And by the way I'll bet the starter of this thread has no such idea about using this as a college law project...

Oh yeah... Yes officer I am keeping a Burgular hostage with an illeagally held gun...

Or.... What do you mean burgular that you will be back to get the gun with six of your friends....

Nuff said.... :D




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